The other topic got me going again. There are so many people who argue either one or the other side of this must be true with no middle ground. So why can't both be true?

I'm a person of faith and of science. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. Why could not evolution be a part of a plan put in place by a higher power? There is a lot of science to back up evolution. Much of it I believe. However that does not mean there was not a creator either.

Why does it have to be black or white? Discuss...

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I agree Sean...since no one was there at the point of inception of the universe and time, we cannot possibly know beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Consider, if someone says they beleive in intelligent design, or Creationism, and they beleive in a "young earth" they are considering that God or "The Creator" whoever that entity maybe, cleary has "omnipotent powers" - and is probably omnicient, and there fore, would not have trouble creating what we see today, creating a percieved concept of time.

I believe this is the premise that people use to say that christianity, or organized religion in general is irrational, and therefore incompatible with science.

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They are both true, but the public debate is whether or not creationism/intelligent design can be taught in public schools science class. Is intelligent design supported by an objective scientific method? And the important part of that is the experimental testing of a hypothesis formulated after the systematic, objective collection of data.

Is anybody out there doing the tests or even able to do tests? What data is available besides faith based belief systems?

Faith is all I need but science needs more.

Sean, Just for the record...

I have always thought that Creation and Evolution could both be true. But pinpointing the actual age of the earth to a few thousand years is where I have a problem.

Why could there not be a God who created the heavens and the earth MILLIONS of years ago and inhabited it first with Vegetation and Dinos? Why could there not be a possibility in the mainstream Creationist's view that the Dino's died out Millions of years before God "created man"?
Ignoring this possiblility and trying to find scientific evidence that the Dino's and the Grand Canyon for example are only a few thousand years old makes me think that they are not capable of critical thinking.

AltechChad, it's the "Young Earth" thought that you mention that in my opinion is the achilles heel. Why do they need to cling to that one thought process? ( know the answer to that, you don't need to post it - the bible is infallable and therefore if it says the earth was created in 7 days, it was created in 7 frigg'n days!)

mgnt8, The issue of Creation being taught in public schools is a separation of church and state issue. If it's a mainly Christian belief that the earth is young and was created a few thousand years ago, why should that be taught in schools were all the students are not of that faith? Children are of the faith of thier parents until they are old enough to form a belief structure of their own. Therefore a Jewish child being taught in a public school what the Christian faith believes is true is just plain wrong. Buddist children do not need to learn of these beliefs either.

IMO, If the parents feel their children must learn the creationist's way, they have every opportunity to teach this at home or at church. Why on earth do they feel they need to force it to be taught in public schools?

For full disclosure, both my children attended private Catholic schools from K-12. They were taught Creation in religion class and were taught Evolution in science class. The Catholics "got it".

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All human knowledge is circular because we live in a closed system with very limited means of observation. Factually speaking we don

I agree. The best solution is to abolish the department of education and privatize all schools. The govt would offer tax credits and other monetary incentives to encourage schools affiliated with many different philosophies to flourish. Christian, Jew, or flying spaghetti monster. But I suppose that is another debate.

Exactly correct on school funding.

...because mandating that no religious ethos be taught is now state support of an ethos that seeks to abolish religion.

That's one way to approach it. As you well know, "The separation of church and state" has absolutely no basis in fact Constitutionally. It was merely one mans opinion expressed in a letter. The first amendment in the Bill of Rights says it all and since there is no

I heard that Jewish people think of Christianity as a "Cult" since it's so "new".

Don't forget about Hinduism, Taoism, Buddism, etc. And the FSM for good measure.

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I honestly feel sorry for people of faith, who believe in a higher power. Religion is and ALWAYS has been about money and power. Looking thru history, I struggle to understand how people of our era, with the information available, could could come to any other answer.
Lucky for religion the almighty can do anything he wants and when the word of god is shown to be flawed, they just come out with 'that

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How cool is that!!! And, it happened right here on MCAD Forums!! All these years I thought what people believed in, was faith based, steeped in whatever their belief system amounted to and within whatever environment they had to work in. Scientists believe and have faith in their science. Followers have faith and believe in their Icons and with most people there is a crossover between the two. I thought, the ongoing search for truth required a cognizant exploration of all available resources. By definition, everything that requires a belief is religion. http://www.bartleby.com/61/6/R0140600.html (clauses 3 & 4 are applicable)
This pretty much means that what ever you put your faith and beliefs in is your religion.

I guess I (and Bartleby) am wrong.

How lucky we are! Please, tell us the truth, you are the only one I know who claims to have it. So, instead of feeling sorry for a lowly Christian, such as myself, please enlighten me with the truth. Help me to approach your level. Start at the beginning and tell me how the

Quite clearly I was talking about definition 1.
What you've done is the same as me taking your opening sentence and replying with "it has nothing to do with temperature"



I stated my opinion on religion, I never anywhere "claimed to have it", If you want to find someone who does "claim to have it" go to your local church, then go to the cathlic church, even find some satanists, they all "claim to have it". (you have made me feel more sorry for you)



You always thought they were lying to you and you believe anyway????



Humans create life every day, I have an 8 year old life at home that 'I' helped create with another human. But I don't think thats what you meant.



If this does happen then (just like us) some of the life will 'make up' it's own beliefs and if (just like us) that life has a group that says believe this and give us money or I will kill you and if I don't the devil will have you and you will burn in hell, then some of the weak minded will blindly follow. Then (just like us) another group will come along with even more life behind it and slaughter the other life for not having the same beliefs. Then (just like us) another group will come along with even more life behind it and slaughter the other life for not having the same beliefs. Then (just like us) another group will come along with even more life behind it and slaughter the other life for not having the same beliefs. Then (just like us) another group will come along with even more life behind it and slaughter the other life for not having the same beliefs.

I don't know the answers your looking for and I don't go looking for them myself. I do claim to not know the answers. I do think however, I can usually see when I'm being conned by a snake oil sales man. It is my opinion however that the mainstream religions of today are shight. Something that caused, is causing and will cause, so much death, destruction and pain clearly can not be the answer, particuarly when they change their past beliefs so as not to look stupid in the current world.

In my opinion, people who support religion with money, attendance at church and reading their books believing it to be the truth are condoning their actions.
Me myself, I don't support killing just because you don't believe what I do.

No worries!

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I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.

Surely evolution to a lessor or greater extent is fact.
Just look at dogs. So many of the breeds around today have evolved to where they, but with the assistance of ourselves over the years to evolve them how we wanted them. They weren't all just "created".